Discussió:Sóller

As always, my apologies for commenting in English & Castellano.
Como siempre, favor de disculparme para hacer mis comentarios en inglés y castellano. Y mi castellano no es del nativo.

I am trying to translate this article into English. Two passages have me confused; I have left them out of the English-language article, pending clarification:
Estoy tratando de traducir esta artículo al inglés. Dos partes me ha confundido. Por el momento, los he dejado fuera de la traducción, hasta que sean clarificados.

1. "S'hi trobà un Mars Balearicus, un deu dels primitius balears, molt bons foners, que amb els cartaginesos, van ser soldats. No volien cobrar en moneda, demanaven pels seus serveis dones, i vi."

As far as I can follow it, this means "There was found [no mention of by whom or where] a Mars Balearicus, a god of the primitive Balears, or better Phoenicians, who went to be Carthaginian soldiers. They did not want to be paid in coins, they demanded skins for their services, and wine." The relevance to this particular article is unstated.

The Mars Balearicus was found in Sóller, in a small town. Mallorca is not so large as Great Britain! It was not exactly soldiers, I corrected it to mercenaries. I don't know exact meaning of skin. As you know at some times women were bought as goods, and I am speaking of the time of Rome, the ancient Rome, till the 19th century any one can be a slave. <<They did no want to be paid in coins>> that is correct, and they asked to be paid in women and wine. -- 80.58.40.237

OK. I understand on the Mars Balearicus. I missed the assertion that it wa found in this town. That's still awfully vague, though. Found by whom, when? Jmabel (US) 19:47 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

I still don't see how the statement about how the mercenaries were paid is relevant to an article on this particular small town. Seems like it would belong in an article on Mallorca more generally, or on Carthaginian mercenaries, unless there were reason to think this one valley was a particular center for mercenaries. Jmabel (US) 19:47 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

Maybe I was confused in writing "skins". As you can see, my Catalan is not great, maybe my 5th language or so (& I don't have a good dictionary!), but as you know there aren't many native English speakers with any at all, so I'm doing my best to translate this stuff. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that "pels" was equivalent to the Castellano "pieles"; that's what I translated. Am I wrong in reading this as furs, women, and wine, or is "pels" something else entirely here, displaying the limits of my ability to read Catalan? Jmabel (US) 19:47 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

Me aparece que significa "Se ha econtrado [¿Quién? ¿Cuando?] un Mars Balearicus, un diós de los baleares primitivos, o mejor foneros, quién con los cartaginos, iban a ser soldados. No han querido recompensa en monedas, sino en pieles y vino para sus servicios."

No es baleares primitivos, o mejor honderos. Es: baleares primitivos, muy buenos honderos (la honda es un arma antigua que con solo una cuerda permite lanzar piedras a gran distancia volteandola por encima de la cabeza) -- 80.58.40.237

Aha! In English it's a "slingshot". I never knew that word in Spanish. Still, why in the article on this particular town? Jmabel (US) 19:47 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

2. "Segons una rondalla recollida per l'Arxiduc Lluís Salvador d'Àustria a Sa Coma hi ha un negret que dona un munt d'or a qui el trobi. Per trobar-lo l'han d'anar a cercar amb el foc nou."

I can't work out the relevance to the article; this could be, in part, because I'm not sure I follow the sentence, and there is no reference to give me broader context. To the best of my understanding, it says "According to a roundelay [that's what this rather obscure word means in Spanish, but maybe it's something else in Catalan] collected by Austrian Archduke Luis Salvador in Sa Coma [another Majorcan town], there was a "negret" [no idea what this word means, I know it only as a proper noun, presumably derives from "negre" (black)] who [or which] would give a heap of gold to whoever found it [or him]. To find it [or him], one had to get close to the new fire [I have no idea what else "foc nou" could mean, and this makes little sense]." The Austrian Archduke Luis Salvador certainly spent time on Majorca, but the precise significance of the this obscure story and the relevance to this particular town is not apparent. I've left it out of the English-language article until someone can clarify. Maybe something to do with the Holy Grail, which many legends associate with Majorca?

Un negret: I dont know the just [precise] word, I'll try to look for it. Rondalla: History, tale. -- 80.58.40.237

If you can just try to explain what it is, in English or Spanish, I imagine I can work out the English word. Again, though, am I correct in understanding that "rondalla" is the same in Catalan as in Spanish, a type of poem known in English as a "roundelay"? Also, how do we know this is specific to this town? Also, what is meant by the mysterious phrase "foc nou"? -- Jmabel (US) 19:47 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

- Un negret in the majorcan tales is as in Aladine's Tale, a person who can give you all you want.

In English, a "genie". May I assume from the word that this genie is specifically black? But in any case, what is the particular relation to Sóller

rather than just to Mallorca? -- Jmabel (US) 22:32 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

No entiendo la relación entre esta pasaje y el artículo. Puede ser debido, en parte, a mi falta de comprensión de la frase, y la falta de fuentes o contexto para clarificar. En mi mejor entendez, significa, "Según una rondalla [la palabra catalana significa lo mismo, ¿no?] recogida por el Arquiduque Luis Salvador de Austria a Sa Coma era un negret [no entiendo esta palabra] que daría una pila de oro a quién el descubriría. Para encontrarlo, era necesario acercarse al fuego nuevo." No entiendo el sentido, en el contexto, de las últimas dos palabras.

Claro que Luis Salvador tuvo asociaciones fuertes con Mallorca, pero no entiendo exactamente que significa esta historia oscura y como se relata a la ciudad de Sóller. ¿Quizás pertenece de una manera al Santo Cáliz, asociado en leyendas con Mallorca?

-- Jmabel (US) 08:05 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

- There is a book of majorica's tales by LLuís Salvador.

It is a tale that my grand mother tells to me when I was a Child, is so good for you?

Well, no. The fact that your grandmother told you the tale and even maybe said it had to do with this particular town is not enough for it to belong in an encyclopedia entry on the town. If those are the standards of the Catalan wikipedia, I'm in no position to argue, but they are not, as I understand it, the standards of the English-language wikipedia. My grandmother told me lots of things that wouldn't pass muster as scholarship. -- Jmabel (US) 22:32 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

- - is a town folklore tale, and it is in a prestigious book of the Archiduke LLuís Salvador, what is the problem? if you have a first hand information, of the majorcan flocklore, what you do in the english wiki? please if you do'nt want to write it in your wiki, do'nt write it. Today we have had great problems with the vandalisme in our wiki.

Foc Nou: I thowg that is the fire that they do in the eater, with the palms', and olives' branches of the past year.

I have no idea what you mean by "in the easter". "Eater" someone who consumes food, this makes no sense. Maybe "Easter", ("Pascuas")? If so, I don't know about the tradition you are apparently referring to. But in any case, this is all a bit vague for an encyclopedia, don't you think? -- Jmabel (US) 22:32 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

I beg you pardon, is Easter 80.58.40.237 23:41 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

I added a Mars Balearicus' web to the article, is well now? 80.58.40.237 23:43 13 gen, 2004 (UTC)

Apesar de que a Mallorca mateix hi s'Horta (a Felanitx), i arreu els païssos catalans n'hi dou haver mes de tres d'Hortes, no he sentit dir mai a cap solleric l'Horta de Sóller, crec que aquest de Sóller hi sobra.

Plàcid Pérez Bru 15:05 27 jul, 2004 (UTC)

Crec que al principi de l'article "Alqueria del Comte" hauria de ser substituït per "Alconasser", per ser coherents amb la taula d'entitats de població que ve després. Potser es podria escriure una secció amb barriades (Estiradors, Alqueria del Comte, Port, l'Horta) o una secció d'articles relacioants. Gairebé tot són enllaços externs. 83.87.0.3 (discussió) 12:25, 7 nov 2009 (CET)[respon]